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goldnblue83
Joined: 30 Sep 2007
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 Posted: Sun Jul 27, 2008 10:39 am Post subject: |
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KG is a fucking nut that talks to himself and screams sporadically, he has me convinced he's a Schizo.
You never see Tim Duncan or Kobe doing that do you  . |
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KyleCleric
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| Posted: Sun Jul 27, 2008 10:40 am Post subject: |
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| arkanekidd wrote: |
| lamar odom and Z are on the same level. who did kobe have besides him? cavs have west, gibson. kobe had smush, cook, kwame, walton... |
Z is a very mediocre player.
Odom has all the talent in the world and a good coach would have used it.
What the heck are you comparing, one of Kobe's early 40 win teams to last year's Cavs team?
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arkanekidd
No Longer A Virgin!
Joined: 16 Sep 2007
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| Posted: Sun Jul 27, 2008 10:43 am Post subject: |
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| KyleCleric wrote: |
| arkanekidd wrote: |
| lamar odom and Z are on the same level. who did kobe have besides him? cavs have west, gibson. kobe had smush, cook, kwame, walton... |
Z is a very mediocre player.
Odom has all the talent in the world and a good coach would have used it.
What the heck are you comparing, one of Kobe's early 40 win teams to last year's Cavs team? |
uhh yes. odom has all the talent in the world? too bad he doesn;t use it.
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arkanekidd
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| Posted: Sun Jul 27, 2008 10:45 am Post subject: |
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First of all, LeBron can be immediately systematically eliminated. His team won 45 games. Because of that, he is automatically out of the running.
Quote:
2006/07 Dirk Nowitzki 67 wins
2005/06 Steve Nash 54 wins
2004/05 Steve Nash 62 wins
2003/04 Kevin Garnett 58 wins
2002/03 Tim Duncan 60 wins
2001/02 Tim Duncan 58 wins
2000/01 Allen Iverson phi 56 wins
1999/00 Shaquille O'Neal 67 wins
1998/99 Karl Malone 61 wins
1997/98 Michael Jordan 62 wins
1996/97 Karl Malone 64 wins
1995/96 Michael Jordan 72 wins
1994/95 David Robinson 62 wins
1993/94 Hakeem Olajuwon 58 wins
1992/93 Charles Barkley 62 wins
1991/92 Michael Jordan 67 wins
1990/91 Michael Jordan 61 wins
1989/90 Magic Johnson 63 wins
1988/89 Magic Johnson 57 wins
1987/88 Michael Jordan 50 wins
1986/87 Magic Johnson 65 wins
1985/86 Larry Bird 67 wins
1984/85 Larry Bird 63 wins
As you can see, no player on this list of MVP award winners, other than Michael Jordan, ever won an MVP with less than 54 wins. MJ won the MVP in ’87-’88 because he was the best offensive player while simultaneously being the DPOY (Defensive Player of the Year). James’ defense is NOWHERE close to that level. He has yet to even be elected to a single All-Defensive team. More importantly, there simply isn’t a player in the history of this award who has won less than 50 games. James won 45. He can’t win the award based on that fact alone. Now i will move on to someone Kobe was actually competing with, Chris Paul.
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arkanekidd
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| Posted: Sun Jul 27, 2008 10:51 am Post subject: |
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When the score is within 5 in the last 5 minutes of a game:
http://www.82games.com/CSORT11.HTM
(All Stats in Per 48 minutes form)
Kobe: 52ppg, 8rpg, 6apg on 45% shooting
CP3: 39ppg, 6rpg, 10.5apg on 48% shooting
When the score is within 3 in the last 3 minutes of a game:
http://www.82games.com/SCSORT11.HTM
Kobe: 64ppg, 12rpg, 5apg on 47% shooting
Paul: 54ppg, 8.5rpg, 11apg on 42% shooting
Kobe’s edge in this category is quite evident. In the triangle offense, no player has ever average more than 7-8apg because of “hockey assists”. That is, passes that lead to assists(that includes ALL of Phil’s teams). Watching the Lakers for all 82 games, I can assure you Kobe accumulated a great deal of these “hockey assists” and while I’m sure Paul does as well, it probably isn’t as many as Kobe because the triangle, by design, is a two pass-away offense. For those of you who are not basketball inclined, that means you need to make two passes to hit the open shooter or cutter at the correct angle. We can also see that while both players get progressively better down the stretch, Kobe clearly makes the greater jump from the 5 minute mark to the 3 minute mark. Kobe is a man possessed in the clutch. Paul’s huge dip in FG% indicates he is trying his best to take over, but simply isn’t at the level where he can maintain his efficiency, or even improve it like Kobe, and still exert his will offensively. In any case, no one doubts Kobe down the stretch. The same cannot be said of Paul.
Further, and perhaps more importantly, Chris Paul is a downright bad defender on the ball. Off the ball, he’s excellent and will get you an amazing amount of steals as many little guys seem to do. That said, his team gives up SIX less points per 100 possessions (a little more than the average amount in an NBA ball game) when Paul sits down. This off-sets two thirds of his offensive impact as the team puts up 15.4 less points per 100 possessions when he’s sitting (info here: http://www.82games.com/0708/07NOH1D.HTM). That is an incredible difference. In fact, we saw this problem manifest itself just last night when Jason Kidd hit him for a triple double and Jason Terry chipped in with 30 points of his own. Consider the following statistics: among the seven other Western playoff teams, in terms of FG% allowed, the Hornets gave up the 2nd worst FG% to Nash, the 3rd worst to Tony Parker, and the The bottom line here is this: Kobe is recognized as the best 2 guard defender in the NBA; on the other hand, Chris Paul just may be apart of the lower echelons of man defense at the PG position.
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Wizards08=Championship
Joined: 17 Jun 2007
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Location: Woodbridge
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| Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 8:49 pm Post subject: |
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| arkanekidd wrote: |
When the score is within 5 in the last 5 minutes of a game:
http://www.82games.com/CSORT11.HTM
(All Stats in Per 48 minutes form)
Kobe: 52ppg, 8rpg, 6apg on 45% shooting
CP3: 39ppg, 6rpg, 10.5apg on 48% shooting
When the score is within 3 in the last 3 minutes of a game:
http://www.82games.com/SCSORT11.HTM
Kobe: 64ppg, 12rpg, 5apg on 47% shooting
Paul: 54ppg, 8.5rpg, 11apg on 42% shooting
Kobe’s edge in this category is quite evident. In the triangle offense, no player has ever average more than 7-8apg because of “hockey assists”. That is, passes that lead to assists(that includes ALL of Phil’s teams). Watching the Lakers for all 82 games, I can assure you Kobe accumulated a great deal of these “hockey assists” and while I’m sure Paul does as well, it probably isn’t as many as Kobe because the triangle, by design, is a two pass-away offense. For those of you who are not basketball inclined, that means you need to make two passes to hit the open shooter or cutter at the correct angle. We can also see that while both players get progressively better down the stretch, Kobe clearly makes the greater jump from the 5 minute mark to the 3 minute mark. Kobe is a man possessed in the clutch. Paul’s huge dip in FG% indicates he is trying his best to take over, but simply isn’t at the level where he can maintain his efficiency, or even improve it like Kobe, and still exert his will offensively. In any case, no one doubts Kobe down the stretch. The same cannot be said of Paul.
Further, and perhaps more importantly, Chris Paul is a downright bad defender on the ball. Off the ball, he’s excellent and will get you an amazing amount of steals as many little guys seem to do. That said, his team gives up SIX less points per 100 possessions (a little more than the average amount in an NBA ball game) when Paul sits down. This off-sets two thirds of his offensive impact as the team puts up 15.4 less points per 100 possessions when he’s sitting (info here: http://www.82games.com/0708/07NOH1D.HTM). That is an incredible difference. In fact, we saw this problem manifest itself just last night when Jason Kidd hit him for a triple double and Jason Terry chipped in with 30 points of his own. Consider the following statistics: among the seven other Western playoff teams, in terms of FG% allowed, the Hornets gave up the 2nd worst FG% to Nash, the 3rd worst to Tony Parker, and the The bottom line here is this: Kobe is recognized as the best 2 guard defender in the NBA; on the other hand, Chris Paul just may be apart of the lower echelons of man defense at the PG position. |
How do you compare a high scoring shooting guard with a great PG that doesnt need to score that much for his team to win?
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arkanekidd
No Longer A Virgin!
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| Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 9:02 pm Post subject: |
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^ if we are talking about who's the best player? you have to analyze everything. compared to kobe, cp3 isn't that great at all.
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Wizards08=Championship
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| Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 9:28 pm Post subject: |
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| arkanekidd wrote: |
| ^ if we are talking about who's the best player? you have to analyze everything. compared to kobe, cp3 isn't that great at all. |
Ok if CP3 is not that great at all..lets look at it this way. Tyson Chandler came into the league from High School and was thought of to be the next best thing until he went to Chi. and couldnt do a single thing because of the coach/system and the PG they had. He goes to the Hornets has career highs in Points, Blks, Boards, and FG% and thats all you ask for a big man basically.
Lets look at David West, hes played his whole career in New Orleans and the first two years there he could barely top 7 PPG, but in Paul's first year there he averaged 17 pts about 7 boards and 1 blk and 1 stl..Now if you dont think Chris Paul made his team better then you just arent seeing straight.
Kobe has Odom, Gasol, Walton, Bynum, Radmanovic, Vujacic, and Farmar..those are the main role players and on any given night they could score alot so if you say Kobe doesnt have a supporting cast..you're just asking for too much.
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arkanekidd
No Longer A Virgin!
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| Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 9:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Wizards08=Championship wrote: |
| arkanekidd wrote: |
| ^ if we are talking about who's the best player? you have to analyze everything. compared to kobe, cp3 isn't that great at all. |
Ok if CP3 is not that great at all..lets look at it this way. Tyson Chandler came into the league from High School and was thought of to be the next best thing until he went to Chi. and couldnt do a single thing because of the coach/system and the PG they had. He goes to the Hornets has career highs in Points, Blks, Boards, and FG% and thats all you ask for a big man basically.
Lets look at David West, hes played his whole career in New Orleans and the first two years there he could barely top 7 PPG, but in Paul's first year there he averaged 17 pts about 7 boards and 1 blk and 1 stl..Now if you dont think Chris Paul made his team better then you just arent seeing straight.
Kobe has Odom, Gasol, Walton, Bynum, Radmanovic, Vujacic, and Farmar..those are the main role players and on any given night they could score alot so if you say Kobe doesnt have a supporting cast..you're just asking for too much. |
I would also like to dispel the myth that Chris Paul has had less to work with this season than has Kobe Bryant. KB24 has only had Gasol and Bynum for a combined 62 games this season and never once at the same time. Meanwhile, Chris Paul has had David West for SEVENTY-SIX games. That alone, is more than the entire body of games played by Bynum and Gasol. One thing about David West, Chris Paul DOES NOT make him who he is. West has a sweet face-up game and jumper and that is the reason for his NBA success. Only 57% of his FGs are assisted. 51% of Duncan’s FGs are assisted. Has Parker made Duncan now as well? How about Dwight Howard? 68% of his scores are assisted. Can he not play without Jameer Nelson? Through and through, this is just argument is just a silly attempt at trying to downplay David West to prop CP3 up.
Kwame Brown was the starting Lakers center for 14 games. How bad is Kwame? This team: Fisher-Bryant-Radmanovic-Odom-Brown was the SIXTH WORST in the NBA in terms of +/- on the scoreboard (points scored minus points given up). What do you get when all you do is replace Kwame with Gasol? Well, you get the SECOND BEST line-up in the NBA in terms of +/- on the scoreboard. Kwame played in 23 games this year.
In addition, the Lakers also rolled out Ronny Turiaf in the starting line-up 21 times. As much as I love Ronny’s heart, he doesn’t hold a candle to Chandler or West and everyone who knows anything about the NBA would agree with that statement. If you’re keeping tally, 37 games were started by Turiaf and Brown.
Prior to the All-Star break and the Gasol acquisition, Odom was averaging 13/10 on 48% shooting. Despite his terrible play (for Lamar’s standards), Kobe had the Lakers in first place despite only 25 Bynum starts. Take your pick: 129 games with Odom, Gasol or Bynum in the line-up or 155 with both Chandler and West. All in all, either way, there is no way this is a significant advantage for Paul. In my opinion, it is, in fact, a slight advantage for Kobe.
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KyleCleric
Site Administrator
Joined: 10 Feb 2007
Posts: 8463
Location: Boston
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| Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2008 9:08 am Post subject: |
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| KyleCleric wrote: |
1a. Paul Pierce
1b. Kevin Garnett
3. Tim Duncan
4. Lebron James
5. Deron Williams
6. Chris Paul
7. Kobe Bryant
8. Chris Bosh
9. Chauncey Billups
10. Tracy McGrady
11. Baron Davis
12. Tony Parker
13. Dwight Howard
14. Joe Johnson
15. Gilbert Arenas
16. Allen Iverson
17. Manu Ginobili
18. Amare Stoudamire
19. Yao Ming
20. Al Jefferson |
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goldnblue83
Joined: 30 Sep 2007
Posts: 2376
Location: Wisconsin
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| Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2008 9:12 am Post subject: |
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| KyleCleric wrote: |
| KyleCleric wrote: |
1a. Paul Pierce
1b. Kevin Garnett
3. Tim Duncan
4. Lebron James
5. Deron Williams
6. Chris Paul
7. Kobe Bryant
8. Chris Bosh
9. Chauncey Billups
10. Tracy McGrady
11. Baron Davis
12. Tony Parker
13. Dwight Howard
14. Joe Johnson
15. Gilbert Arenas
16. Allen Iverson
17. Manu Ginobili
18. Amare Stoudamire
19. Yao Ming
20. Al Jefferson |
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KyleCleric
Site Administrator
Joined: 10 Feb 2007
Posts: 8463
Location: Boston
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| Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2008 9:12 am Post subject: |
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| goldnblue83 wrote: |
| KyleCleric wrote: |
| KyleCleric wrote: |
1a. Paul Pierce
1b. Kevin Garnett
3. Tim Duncan
4. Lebron James
5. Deron Williams
6. Chris Paul
7. Kobe Bryant
8. Chris Bosh
9. Chauncey Billups
10. Tracy McGrady
11. Baron Davis
12. Tony Parker
13. Dwight Howard
14. Joe Johnson
15. Gilbert Arenas
16. Allen Iverson
17. Manu Ginobili
18. Amare Stoudamire
19. Yao Ming
20. Al Jefferson |
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goldnblue83
Joined: 30 Sep 2007
Posts: 2376
Location: Wisconsin
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| Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2008 9:13 am Post subject: |
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| Did you see Wade play in the warmup games? He was the best player on the court. |
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KyleCleric
Site Administrator
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| Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2008 9:15 am Post subject: |
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| goldnblue83 wrote: |
| Did you see Wade play in the warmup games? He was the best player on the court. |
Best player not named Lebron or Deron?
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goldnblue83
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Location: Wisconsin
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| Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2008 9:23 am Post subject: |
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| KyleCleric wrote: |
| goldnblue83 wrote: |
| Did you see Wade play in the warmup games? He was the best player on the court. |
Best player not named Lebron or Deron? |
Deron was beastly, but yes he did better than Lebron. You honestly don't think that Dwyane Wade is better than Billups, Joe Johnson, Arenas, or Al Jefferson? |
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KyleCleric
Site Administrator
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| Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2008 9:24 am Post subject: |
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| goldnblue83 wrote: |
| KyleCleric wrote: |
| goldnblue83 wrote: |
| Did you see Wade play in the warmup games? He was the best player on the court. |
Best player not named Lebron or Deron? |
Deron was beastly, but yes he did better than Lebron. You honestly don't think that Dwyane Wade is better than Billups, Joe Johnson, Arenas, or Al Jefferson? |
depends on the day. while Wade is still hyped well beyond his actual worth, he's staying out of my top 20.
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Wizards08=Championship
Joined: 17 Jun 2007
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Location: Woodbridge
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| Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2008 9:55 pm Post subject: |
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| KyleCleric wrote: |
| goldnblue83 wrote: |
| KyleCleric wrote: |
| goldnblue83 wrote: |
| Did you see Wade play in the warmup games? He was the best player on the court. |
Best player not named Lebron or Deron? |
Deron was beastly, but yes he did better than Lebron. You honestly don't think that Dwyane Wade is better than Billups, Joe Johnson, Arenas, or Al Jefferson? |
depends on the day. while Wade is still hyped well beyond his actual worth, he's staying out of my top 20. |
Hes not that bad though, i think he is in the top 20 though..i looked at some statistical breakdowns and Joe Johnson doesnt do that great against bad teams. Take the playoffs for example, he was supposed to be the best player on the Hawks but Horford and Smith outplayed him thats why he slipped out of my top 20.
I also didnt see Elton Brand on any lists, i think he is by far the most underrated superstar in the league hes averaged a double double almost every season except 2 since hes been in the league, hes averaged over 50% in FG shooting and he can also play defense..he averages 2.1 Blks and 1 Stl in his career thats amazing for a 6'8 PF, pretty undersized for most PF's in the league.
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goldnblue83
Joined: 30 Sep 2007
Posts: 2376
Location: Wisconsin
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| Posted: Thu Aug 07, 2008 8:47 am Post subject: |
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| Wizards08=Championship wrote: |
| KyleCleric wrote: |
| goldnblue83 wrote: |
| KyleCleric wrote: |
| goldnblue83 wrote: |
| Did you see Wade play in the warmup games? He was the best player on the court. |
Best player not named Lebron or Deron? |
Deron was beastly, but yes he did better than Lebron. You honestly don't think that Dwyane Wade is better than Billups, Joe Johnson, Arenas, or Al Jefferson? |
depends on the day. while Wade is still hyped well beyond his actual worth, he's staying out of my top 20. |
Hes not that bad though, i think he is in the top 20 though..i looked at some statistical breakdowns and Joe Johnson doesnt do that great against bad teams. Take the playoffs for example, he was supposed to be the best player on the Hawks but Horford and Smith outplayed him thats why he slipped out of my top 20.
I also didnt see Elton Brand on any lists, i think he is by far the most underrated superstar in the league hes averaged a double double almost every season except 2 since hes been in the league, hes averaged over 50% in FG shooting and he can also play defense..he averages 2.1 Blks and 1 Stl in his career thats amazing for a 6'8 PF, pretty undersized for most PF's in the league. |
Now every time I think of Johnson I think of game 6 against the Celtics, when he simply took over in the 4th quarter. He just scored bucket after bucket and no one could stop him no matter what they did. There aren't too many players like that in the league.
Brand was 17th on my list btw, and he'll probably move up if he can recover and lead Philly to the playoffs. |
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Wizards08=Championship
Joined: 17 Jun 2007
Posts: 397
Location: Woodbridge
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| Posted: Thu Aug 07, 2008 1:30 pm Post subject: |
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| goldnblue83 wrote: |
| Wizards08=Championship wrote: |
| KyleCleric wrote: |
| goldnblue83 wrote: |
| KyleCleric wrote: |
| goldnblue83 wrote: |
| Did you see Wade play in the warmup games? He was the best player on the court. |
Best player not named Lebron or Deron? |
Deron was beastly, but yes he did better than Lebron. You honestly don't think that Dwyane Wade is better than Billups, Joe Johnson, Arenas, or Al Jefferson? |
depends on the day. while Wade is still hyped well beyond his actual worth, he's staying out of my top 20. |
Hes not that bad though, i think he is in the top 20 though..i looked at some statistical breakdowns and Joe Johnson doesnt do that great against bad teams. Take the playoffs for example, he was supposed to be the best player on the Hawks but Horford and Smith outplayed him thats why he slipped out of my top 20.
I also didnt see Elton Brand on any lists, i think he is by far the most underrated superstar in the league hes averaged a double double almost every season except 2 since hes been in the league, hes averaged over 50% in FG shooting and he can also play defense..he averages 2.1 Blks and 1 Stl in his career thats amazing for a 6'8 PF, pretty undersized for most PF's in the league. |
Now every time I think of Johnson I think of game 6 against the Celtics, when he simply took over in the 4th quarter. He just scored bucket after bucket and no one could stop him no matter what they did. There aren't too many players like that in the league.
Brand was 17th on my list btw, and he'll probably move up if he can recover and lead Philly to the playoffs. |
Yea that was the game he dropped 30 somethin right? I didnt say he was a bad player, but id take Wade over him.
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goldnblue83
Joined: 30 Sep 2007
Posts: 2376
Location: Wisconsin
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| Posted: Thu Aug 07, 2008 2:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Wizards08=Championship wrote: |
| goldnblue83 wrote: |
| Wizards08=Championship wrote: |
| KyleCleric wrote: |
| goldnblue83 wrote: |
| KyleCleric wrote: |
| goldnblue83 wrote: |
| Did you see Wade play in the warmup games? He was the best player on the court. |
Best player not named Lebron or Deron? |
Deron was beastly, but yes he did better than Lebron. You honestly don't think that Dwyane Wade is better than Billups, Joe Johnson, Arenas, or Al Jefferson? |
depends on the day. while Wade is still hyped well beyond his actual worth, he's staying out of my top 20. |
Hes not that bad though, i think he is in the top 20 though..i looked at some statistical breakdowns and Joe Johnson doesnt do that great against bad teams. Take the playoffs for example, he was supposed to be the best player on the Hawks but Horford and Smith outplayed him thats why he slipped out of my top 20.
I also didnt see Elton Brand on any lists, i think he is by far the most underrated superstar in the league hes averaged a double double almost every season except 2 since hes been in the league, hes averaged over 50% in FG shooting and he can also play defense..he averages 2.1 Blks and 1 Stl in his career thats amazing for a 6'8 PF, pretty undersized for most PF's in the league. |
Now every time I think of Johnson I think of game 6 against the Celtics, when he simply took over in the 4th quarter. He just scored bucket after bucket and no one could stop him no matter what they did. There aren't too many players like that in the league.
Brand was 17th on my list btw, and he'll probably move up if he can recover and lead Philly to the playoffs. |
Yea that was the game he dropped 30 somethin right? I didnt say he was a bad player, but id take Wade over him. |
no doubt |
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