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KyleCleric
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 Posted: Sun Jul 27, 2008 12:45 am Post subject: |
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| goldnblue83 wrote: |
| KyleCleric wrote: |
| arkanekidd wrote: |
have you watched KG's post season career?
he doesn't close huge games well.
for any example of one instance where the team was in a do or die situation and he rose to the ocassion (and I can honestly say I don't recall even one)
he has 5 where he stood and watched as the game was lost.
There are players who have great skills and great ability... no doubt KG has it in abundance.... he can be unreal
then there are players who have greatness...who have "it" that thing.... that.... who knows... you know when you see it.... players who show when it matters most that they are up to the task
KG doesn't have that greatness....
I have been saying it for years... watch the series recap and in the most important game... the last few minutes were the most important he has ever played.... and... Posey made more of an impact |
Kidd, you don't know what you're talking about when it comes to KG and when it comes to greatness. You don't understand him because he is the most unselfish player in the NBA. His game is about creating the guys around him better more than his own individual play. Greatness isn't about scoring. It isn't even about assists. It's about doing a number of things very well. It's about creating positive team chemistry and team identity. He isn't going to be a guy that will put up a ton of points. He is a guy that will open up easy scoring opportunities for his teammates through his own scoring threat or the pass, close out the lane, dominate the boards, connect with teammates and cover up the flaws of his teammates while highlighting their strengths. |
That may be his image now, but for the first ten years of his career he sure didn't do that.
If you replaced "KG" with Duncan in the first sentence then it would make perfect sense. |
no kidding. their virtually the same player in terms of impact, ability, and team oriented attitude. The one difference has been that Duncan has for the most part had a supporting cast that has been super talented and mature enough to play for the betterment of the team. KG didn't get that until this past season.
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arkanekidd
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| Posted: Sun Jul 27, 2008 12:55 am Post subject: |
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replace KG with Duncan on the spurs, and the spurs won't have 4 titles like they do now, they will have less. I am not saying KG sucks by any means, i am just saying Duncan>>>KG...ok that's enough serious talk for one night 
now time for my top 20 list...
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KyleCleric
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| Posted: Sun Jul 27, 2008 1:01 am Post subject: |
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| arkanekidd wrote: |
replace KG with Duncan on the spurs, and the spurs won't have 4 titles like they do now, they will have less. I am not saying KG sucks by any means, i am just saying Duncan>>>KG...ok that's enough serious talk for one night
now time for my top 20 list... |
that's an impossible claim to make. Duncan is certainly better than KG in some ways and KG is certainly better than Duncan in other ways. But in terms of the way they approach the game, the two are the most similar to each other than any player. you put KG on the Spurs and Duncan through the same travels that KG has been through, KG would have 4 titles and Duncans would have 1. There wouldn't be a change.
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arkanekidd
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| Posted: Sun Jul 27, 2008 1:16 am Post subject: |
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1. Kobe Bryant
2. Lebron James
3. Chris Paul
4. Tim Duncan
5. Kevin Garnett
6. Dwight Howard
7. Yao Ming
8. Dwight Howard
9. Deron Williams
10. Manu Ginobilli
11. Allen Iverson
12. Chris Bosh
13. Steve Nash
14. Paul Pierce
15. Tracy McGrady
16. Dwayne Wade
17. Caron Butler
18. Carmelo Anthony
19. Chauncey Billups
20. Pau Gasol
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arkanekidd
No Longer A Virgin!
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| Posted: Sun Jul 27, 2008 1:20 am Post subject: |
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| KyleCleric wrote: |
| arkanekidd wrote: |
replace KG with Duncan on the spurs, and the spurs won't have 4 titles like they do now, they will have less. I am not saying KG sucks by any means, i am just saying Duncan>>>KG...ok that's enough serious talk for one night
now time for my top 20 list... |
that's an impossible claim to make. Duncan is certainly better than KG in some ways and KG is certainly better than Duncan in other ways. But in terms of the way they approach the game, the two are the most similar to each other than any player. you put KG on the Spurs and Duncan through the same travels that KG has been through, KG would have 4 titles and Duncans would have 1. There wouldn't be a change. |
No. Duncan gets it done, KG doesn't. No way spurs would have 4 titles if KG played instead of Duncan. they are not similar at all.
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KyleCleric
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| Posted: Sun Jul 27, 2008 1:41 am Post subject: |
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| arkanekidd wrote: |
| KyleCleric wrote: |
| arkanekidd wrote: |
replace KG with Duncan on the spurs, and the spurs won't have 4 titles like they do now, they will have less. I am not saying KG sucks by any means, i am just saying Duncan>>>KG...ok that's enough serious talk for one night
now time for my top 20 list... |
that's an impossible claim to make. Duncan is certainly better than KG in some ways and KG is certainly better than Duncan in other ways. But in terms of the way they approach the game, the two are the most similar to each other than any player. you put KG on the Spurs and Duncan through the same travels that KG has been through, KG would have 4 titles and Duncans would have 1. There wouldn't be a change. |
No. Duncan gets it done, KG doesn't. No way spurs would have 4 titles if KG played instead of Duncan. they are not similar at all. |
and yet KG has won his title as the main guy, leading one of the greatest teams in NBA history ...
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arkanekidd
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| Posted: Sun Jul 27, 2008 2:03 am Post subject: |
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| KyleCleric wrote: |
1. Kevin Garnett
2. Tim Duncan
3. Lebron James
4. Deron Williams
5. Chris Paul
6. Kobe Bryant
7. Paul Pierce
8. Chris Bosh
9. Chauncey Billups
10. Tracy McGrady
11. Baron Davis
12. Tony Parker
13. Dwight Howard
14. Joe Johnson
15. Gilbert Arenas
16. Allen Iverson
17. Manu Ginobili
18. Amare Stoudamire
19. Yao Ming
20. Al Jefferson |
lebron...deron...cp3...and duncan? wow wtf are you thinking...
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KyleCleric
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| Posted: Sun Jul 27, 2008 2:04 am Post subject: |
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[quote="arkanekidd"]
| KyleCleric wrote: |
lebron...deron...cp3...and duncan? wow wtf are you thinking... |
that the Skip Bayless school of thought that you promote is bullshit.
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arkanekidd
No Longer A Virgin!
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| Posted: Sun Jul 27, 2008 2:06 am Post subject: |
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[quote="KyleCleric"]
| arkanekidd wrote: |
| KyleCleric wrote: |
lebron...deron...cp3...and duncan? wow wtf are you thinking... |
that the Skip Bayless school of thought that you promote is bullshit. |
skip bayless? i am not the one that well...nah...your worse than skip
statistically and in reality kobe is the best player in the NBA and deserved to be MVP.
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apples
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| Posted: Sun Jul 27, 2008 6:17 am Post subject: |
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No love for Caron or a 20/10 guy in Jamison. Jamison is like one of 4 players that averages 20/10
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KyleCleric
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| Posted: Sun Jul 27, 2008 9:01 am Post subject: |
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[quote="arkanekidd"]
| KyleCleric wrote: |
| arkanekidd wrote: |
| KyleCleric wrote: |
lebron...deron...cp3...and duncan? wow wtf are you thinking... |
that the Skip Bayless school of thought that you promote is bullshit. |
skip bayless? i am not the one that well...nah...your worse than skip
statistically and in reality kobe is the best player in the NBA and deserved to be MVP. |
stats suck and reality is cloudy by media BS ...
Kevin Garnett was last years MVP. Chris Paul should have been second. Lebron should have been third.
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KyleCleric
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| Posted: Sun Jul 27, 2008 9:05 am Post subject: |
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if your only criteria is stats, Lebron led Kobe in scoring, rebounds, assists, blocks, and tied him in steals. Lebron had a better field goal percentage while Kobe had a slightly better 3pt% and slightly better turnover numbers, and a better free throw percentage.
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arkanekidd
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KyleCleric
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| Posted: Sun Jul 27, 2008 10:14 am Post subject: |
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| arkanekidd wrote: |
http://www.82games.com/COM1S11.HTM
Bryant>Lebron offensively and defensively. |
hurray for making up stats.
what's the quote?
'There are lies, damn lies, - and statistics.'
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arkanekidd
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| Posted: Sun Jul 27, 2008 10:17 am Post subject: |
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KG’s scoring and rebounding numbers are at 18/9 this year and he has missed eleven games in only one season. Even with those eleven missed games, his team still etched out 60+ in the win column. In fact, this isn’t a surprise at all. Ray Allen and Paul Pierce have BOTH led their teams to the Eastern Conference Finals in the past and BOTH have been franchise players for YEARS. Both have taken their teams to the playoffs without KG, or anyone like him, and both are recognized as All-Star talents. Kobe did not have a single teammate in the All-Star game this year.
Shaq and Kobe were penalized in the MVP voting for playing together. They won one MVP among them despite being unarguably the best two players in the game at the time. Why? Because, in order to be MVP, you simply cannot have a dominant supporting cast. If you do, you don’t win. It’s that simple. Shaq had the greatest second option in the history of basketball, the team facilitator who led the Lakers in assists for EVERY season of the three-peat, and who was constantly elected to All-NBA defensive teams. When you combine the facts that KG had Allen and Pierce, he missed 11 games, and his numbers would be the worst ever for an MVP candidate, you have no other choice but to realize that KG simply cannot finish first in the MVP voting based on the way the past MVPs have been chosen.
Now, this leaves us with Kobe’s only real MVP competition, Chris Paul.
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arkanekidd
No Longer A Virgin!
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| Posted: Sun Jul 27, 2008 10:20 am Post subject: |
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| KyleCleric wrote: |
| arkanekidd wrote: |
http://www.82games.com/COM1S11.HTM
Bryant>Lebron offensively and defensively. |
hurray for making up stats.
what's the quote?
'There are lies, damn lies, - and statistics.' |
Bryant is the best against good teams, when it actually matters
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arkanekidd
No Longer A Virgin!
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| Posted: Sun Jul 27, 2008 10:32 am Post subject: |
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[quote="KyleCleric"]
| arkanekidd wrote: |
| KyleCleric wrote: |
| arkanekidd wrote: |
| KyleCleric wrote: |
lebron...deron...cp3...and duncan? wow wtf are you thinking... |
that the Skip Bayless school of thought that you promote is bullshit. |
skip bayless? i am not the one that well...nah...your worse than skip
statistically and in reality kobe is the best player in the NBA and deserved to be MVP. |
stats suck and reality is cloudy by media BS ...
Kevin Garnett was last years MVP. Chris Paul should have been second. Lebron should have been third. |
lebron?!?!?!?
Giving James the MVP, and it would be a gift, for winning 45 games equates to the heights of hypocrisy. When Bryant scored 81 points, 62 in 3 quarters, put up 35/5/5 in a superior western conference with inferior teammates, and, all the same, won 45 games, he finished no higher than 4th in the voting. How, then, can James be first? The answer: He can’t.
There is no need for the discussion to go past this point. There is no need to discuss whether James is better than Bryant or not. There is no need to discuss stats. There is no need to discuss importance to the team. James can’t win.
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KyleCleric
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| Posted: Sun Jul 27, 2008 10:35 am Post subject: |
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| arkanekidd wrote: |
KG’s scoring and rebounding numbers are at 18/9 this year and he has missed eleven games in only one season. Even with those eleven missed games, his team still etched out 60+ in the win column. In fact, this isn’t a surprise at all. Ray Allen and Paul Pierce have BOTH led their teams to the Eastern Conference Finals in the past and BOTH have been franchise players for YEARS. Both have taken their teams to the playoffs without KG, or anyone like him, and both are recognized as All-Star talents. Kobe did not have a single teammate in the All-Star game this year.
Shaq and Kobe were penalized in the MVP voting for playing together. They won one MVP among them despite being unarguably the best two players in the game at the time. Why? Because, in order to be MVP, you simply cannot have a dominant supporting cast. If you do, you don’t win. It’s that simple. Shaq had the greatest second option in the history of basketball, the team facilitator who led the Lakers in assists for EVERY season of the three-peat, and who was constantly elected to All-NBA defensive teams. When you combine the facts that KG had Allen and Pierce, he missed 11 games, and his numbers would be the worst ever for an MVP candidate, you have no other choice but to realize that KG simply cannot finish first in the MVP voting based on the way the past MVPs have been chosen.
Now, this leaves us with Kobe’s only real MVP competition, Chris Paul. |
Again, that reasoning on KG shows a very poor understanding of his game and what he's all about. KG created a team identity, team chemistry that transcends his play and alters the ways his teammates play. Even without him, his play the rest of the season created the team game that allowed the Celtics to win even when he wasn't on the court.
Being an All-Star, a "franchise player" (most misunderstood term in sports), Paul Pierce or Ray, both are excellent players, but they are not great ones. They have great talent, could average 25 to 30 points per game if they wanted to, but neither can lead a team to a championship and neither are the number 1 reason for #17 to be hanging in the Garden opening night.
Shaq may have been penalized for his MVPs. He's better than just 1 MVP. Kobe does not deserve a single MVP. He isn't that type of player. He certainly was not the 2nd best player in the league during those years and isn't the first, second, or third best player in the league now.
KG is the definition of most valuable. He created the identity of the team, brought them together, taught them how to play, played extraordinarily well, led the team to 66 wins, and an NBA championship.
Lebron James and Chris Paul are 2 and 3. Lebron's second best player is DELONTE WEST. He led a crummy team to a respectable record, advanced in the playoffs, and did so with great stats and leadership. Chris Paul led a team full of mediocre talent to the best record in the Western Conference, and did so with great stats and leadership. Kobe and Phil, and the rest of the Lakers, had an excellent record, and cruised through three rounds of the playoffs, and Kobe put up great stats. But him and the coach isolated themselves from the rest of the team. They did not put up a playoff quality effort. He quit on his team this season. There is no trust, no leadership, no chance with those players. That crummy of a team has no personality, no chemistry, no identity. That will not change.
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arkanekidd
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| Posted: Sun Jul 27, 2008 10:37 am Post subject: |
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lamar odom and Z are on the same level. who did kobe have besides him? cavs have west, gibson. kobe had smush, cook, kwame, walton...
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arkanekidd
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| Posted: Sun Jul 27, 2008 10:39 am Post subject: |
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KG gave them a team identity...that's crap. ok he's a great chemisty guy and a great defender, that doesn't make you MVP. leader? i am sorry paul pierce is the team's true leader, KG made them better as a team defensively, and got them to think defense.
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