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KyleCleric
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 Posted: Sun Jul 27, 2008 12:03 am Post subject: |
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| Wizards08=Championship wrote: |
| KyleCleric wrote: |
| Deron Williams is a better pure point guard. He does a better job creating for his teammates and is a far better defensive player. I'd take his quiet leadership over Paul's, too. Paul just has the scoring aspect going for him. His assist statistical advantage comes because Paul dominates his teams offense. It either goes through him or it doesn't happen. |
You're right..but if they were to switch teams(Paul in Utah and Deron in NO) do you think they would still have the same effect as they do now? |
I don't know if those teams would be better or worse if that happened. I do know though that I like Deron's game a lot more than Paul's and would rather build a team around Deron than Paul.
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arkanekidd
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| Posted: Sun Jul 27, 2008 12:05 am Post subject: |
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Tim Duncan >>>>>>>>>>>>> KG.
if he had been able to put the team on his back those guys WOULD be considered that type of roster
look at Hakeem
people recall his role players as being important... Jet, Sam, Horry Thorpe (wasn't he there?) etc
because they won....
look at Sean Elliot, MArio Ellie, Avery Johnson...they remembered because they were on a team that won.... TD at time put them on his back
look at the likes of Horace grant, Derek Fisher, Fox, Scott Paxson, Mike Cooper, Mykael Thompson, Luke Longley.... we recall their names because they were on a roster of a winning team... and some player at some point picked them up and carried them to the next level... KG's rosters in MN aren't remembered that way because KG never suceeded in having that moment....
if he had taken a game 7... in the final 4 mins and scored 12 pts and gotten 7 or 8 bounds to close the game in a win... those players would be remembered as part of a team that di something special.... he didn't... not when they needed to get to the next level.. and they aren't
I AM NOT saying TD won it all by himself...just saying greatness.... at times.... in huge games.... when their teams aren't getting it done says "I'll do it"
TD has done it..... KG has NEVER done that... Bron has done it, AI has done it, Reggie Miller did it.. they might not have won it all... but they got to the ends of elimination games in huge series and said "I won't lose"
how many first round outs were the T Wilves... and one yr they made it to the WCF.... I believe a game 7 (could be wrong)
that's when..down the stretch the elite stars take over the game...... KG has taken over countless games.... when it made only a nominal difference...
if you win you're roster gains a personality... if they lose they become not good enough
boohoo
In... 03-04, Sam got 19.8/7.3/3.3 (sam was good enough to make it to 3 final series... but I guess in MN he wasn't good.. so he's an excuse for KG)
Spree averaged 17 and people whine about his roster... (made it to a finals series.. but on MN he was an excuse for KG not getting it done)
MN took Oliwakandi from LAC 12.3/9.1 and reduced his minutes and Flip had NO IDEA how to use KG or a center... KG nor Flip wanted him to be a center.... why they under sized him in the MN team stadium guide... Flip fucked up by making him a slash forward...his stats were great and they never won dick....and Kandi's production shit the bed... but he came to MN being a decent rebounder
Wally has yrs where he averaged 17/18 pts a game... he was injured in 03-04
but this misconception that KG didn't have help is an excuse
and people forget Troy Hudson was a 15/5.7 guy in his first yr in MN help
KG just isn't a leader.... nothing wrong with that... PP is the MVP of that teams success.... they may (as the NBA does) give KG a career achievment series MVP... but he isn't the type of player who can "get it done"
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Wizards08=Championship
Joined: 17 Jun 2007
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| Posted: Sun Jul 27, 2008 12:06 am Post subject: |
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| KyleCleric wrote: |
| Wizards08=Championship wrote: |
| KyleCleric wrote: |
| Deron Williams is a better pure point guard. He does a better job creating for his teammates and is a far better defensive player. I'd take his quiet leadership over Paul's, too. Paul just has the scoring aspect going for him. His assist statistical advantage comes because Paul dominates his teams offense. It either goes through him or it doesn't happen. |
You're right..but if they were to switch teams(Paul in Utah and Deron in NO) do you think they would still have the same effect as they do now? |
I don't know if those teams would be better or worse if that happened. I do know though that I like Deron's game a lot more than Paul's and would rather build a team around Deron than Paul. |
Oh ok fair enough, i really think Deron got snubbed in the all star though and he is one of my favorite players in the league.
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Wizards08=Championship
Joined: 17 Jun 2007
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| Posted: Sun Jul 27, 2008 12:10 am Post subject: |
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| arkanekidd wrote: |
Tim Duncan >>>>>>>>>>>>> KG.
if he had been able to put the team on his back those guys WOULD be considered that type of roster
look at Hakeem
people recall his role players as being important... Jet, Sam, Horry Thorpe (wasn't he there?) etc
because they won....
look at Sean Elliot, MArio Ellie, Avery Johnson...they remembered because they were on a team that won.... TD at time put them on his back
look at the likes of Horace grant, Derek Fisher, Fox, Scott Paxson, Mike Cooper, Mykael Thompson, Luke Longley.... we recall their names because they were on a roster of a winning team... and some player at some point picked them up and carried them to the next level... KG's rosters in MN aren't remembered that way because KG never suceeded in having that moment....
if he had taken a game 7... in the final 4 mins and scored 12 pts and gotten 7 or 8 bounds to close the game in a win... those players would be remembered as part of a team that di something special.... he didn't... not when they needed to get to the next level.. and they aren't
I AM NOT saying TD won it all by himself...just saying greatness.... at times.... in huge games.... when their teams aren't getting it done says "I'll do it"
TD has done it..... KG has NEVER done that... Bron has done it, AI has done it, Reggie Miller did it.. they might not have won it all... but they got to the ends of elimination games in huge series and said "I won't lose"
how many first round outs were the T Wilves... and one yr they made it to the WCF.... I believe a game 7 (could be wrong)
that's when..down the stretch the elite stars take over the game...... KG has taken over countless games.... when it made only a nominal difference...
if you win you're roster gains a personality... if they lose they become not good enough
boohoo
In... 03-04, Sam got 19.8/7.3/3.3 (sam was good enough to make it to 3 final series... but I guess in MN he wasn't good.. so he's an excuse for KG)
Spree averaged 17 and people whine about his roster... (made it to a finals series.. but on MN he was an excuse for KG not getting it done)
MN took Oliwakandi from LAC 12.3/9.1 and reduced his minutes and Flip had NO IDEA how to use KG or a center... KG nor Flip wanted him to be a center.... why they under sized him in the MN team stadium guide... Flip fucked up by making him a slash forward...his stats were great and they never won dick....and Kandi's production shit the bed... but he came to MN being a decent rebounder
Wally has yrs where he averaged 17/18 pts a game... he was injured in 03-04
but this misconception that KG didn't have help is an excuse
and people forget Troy Hudson was a 15/5.7 guy in his first yr in MN help
KG just isn't a leader.... nothing wrong with that... PP is the MVP of that teams success.... they may (as the NBA does) give KG a career achievment series MVP... but he isn't the type of player who can "get it done" |
Ok out of all those names that you named, look at who has helped TD win the championships though..Parker, Manu, David Robinson(Yea you forgot about the Twin Towers?) But who ever helped KG even reach the WCF finals?
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arkanekidd
No Longer A Virgin!
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| Posted: Sun Jul 27, 2008 12:15 am Post subject: |
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the whole point of my post was to say that Tim Duncan can takeover games when it matters in situations of pressure, and KG doesn't do that. Tim Duncan is a physical player, KG on the other hand is a soft, jumpshooting forward.
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goldnblue83
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| Posted: Sun Jul 27, 2008 12:16 am Post subject: |
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| It is virtually impossible for a single player to carry an entire team to a championship. Lebron proved that last year, and Kobe every year after Shaq left until this season. If you think of every great dynasty they have always had multiple talents to support the the team. |
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goldnblue83
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| Posted: Sun Jul 27, 2008 12:18 am Post subject: |
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| arkanekidd wrote: |
| the whole point of my post was to say that Tim Duncan can takeover games when it matters in situations of pressure, and KG doesn't do that. Tim Duncan is a physical player, KG on the other hand is a soft, jumpshooting forward. |
I disagree completely, when KG was in his twenties on Minny he could definitely take over games, overpowering small forwards and driving past 4s. |
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Wizards08=Championship
Joined: 17 Jun 2007
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| Posted: Sun Jul 27, 2008 12:18 am Post subject: |
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| goldnblue83 wrote: |
| It is virtually impossible for a single player to carry an entire team to a championship. Lebron proved that last year, and Kobe every year after Shaq left until this season. If you think of every great dynasty they have always had multiple talents to support the the team. |
Exactly my point.. If Scottie wasnt there i dont think MJ could have done it by himself as great as he was. He would have definitely got close but not all the way.
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KyleCleric
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| Posted: Sun Jul 27, 2008 12:20 am Post subject: |
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| arkanekidd wrote: |
KG just isn't a leader.... nothing wrong with that... PP is the MVP of that teams success.... they may (as the NBA does) give KG a career achievment series MVP... but he isn't the type of player who can "get it done" |
Kidd, you don't know what you're talking about. KG was the heart and soul of the Celtics team. Everything was built around him. Defense, defense, defense. The defense was built around his help and worked because he's the best defensive player in the game. his leadership kept Pierce in line (a bit of a feat, but not really a tough one considering the instant credibility of Allen and KG). KG showed leadership through sacrifice, insisting for the media to treat Pierce as the teams key star even when everyone knew it was KG. KG created the character of this Celtics team, a team that was one of the greatest teams of all-time and second only in Celtics history to the 1986 squad that truly is the greatest team in NBA history.
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arkanekidd
No Longer A Virgin!
Joined: 16 Sep 2007
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| Posted: Sun Jul 27, 2008 12:20 am Post subject: |
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| goldnblue83 wrote: |
| It is virtually impossible for a single player to carry an entire team to a championship. Lebron proved that last year, and Kobe every year after Shaq left until this season. If you think of every great dynasty they have always had multiple talents to support the the team. |
it's like you didn't read my post at all.... 
everyone has a supporting cast, but KG chokes in the clutch, and Duncan doesn't. there, one sentence only.
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Wizards08=Championship
Joined: 17 Jun 2007
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Location: Woodbridge
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| Posted: Sun Jul 27, 2008 12:21 am Post subject: |
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| goldnblue83 wrote: |
| arkanekidd wrote: |
| the whole point of my post was to say that Tim Duncan can takeover games when it matters in situations of pressure, and KG doesn't do that. Tim Duncan is a physical player, KG on the other hand is a soft, jumpshooting forward. |
I disagree completely, when KG was in his twenties on Minny he could definitely take over games, overpowering small forwards and driving past 4s. |
Soft. Wow..here goes a video for you to check out.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=ZNNbz5FIuCQ
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goldnblue83
Joined: 30 Sep 2007
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| Posted: Sun Jul 27, 2008 12:22 am Post subject: |
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| arkanekidd wrote: |
| goldnblue83 wrote: |
| It is virtually impossible for a single player to carry an entire team to a championship. Lebron proved that last year, and Kobe every year after Shaq left until this season. If you think of every great dynasty they have always had multiple talents to support the the team. |
it's like you didn't read my post at all....
everyone has a supporting cast, but KG chokes in the clutch, and Duncan doesn't. there, one sentence only. |
actually I didn't see it until after I posted this |
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goldnblue83
Joined: 30 Sep 2007
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| Posted: Sun Jul 27, 2008 12:24 am Post subject: |
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| Wizards08=Championship wrote: |
| goldnblue83 wrote: |
| arkanekidd wrote: |
| the whole point of my post was to say that Tim Duncan can takeover games when it matters in situations of pressure, and KG doesn't do that. Tim Duncan is a physical player, KG on the other hand is a soft, jumpshooting forward. |
I disagree completely, when KG was in his twenties on Minny he could definitely take over games, overpowering small forwards and driving past 4s. |
Soft. Wow..here goes a video for you to check out.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=ZNNbz5FIuCQ |
When he started at SF with Joe Smith and Kandi it was absolutely rediculous
edit: nvm smith left before kandi came, I thought they played together though
Last edited by goldnblue83 on Sun Jul 27, 2008 12:27 am; edited 1 time in total |
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arkanekidd
No Longer A Virgin!
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| Posted: Sun Jul 27, 2008 12:25 am Post subject: |
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have you watched KG's post season career?
he doesn't close huge games well.
for any example of one instance where the team was in a do or die situation and he rose to the ocassion (and I can honestly say I don't recall even one)
he has 5 where he stood and watched as the game was lost.
There are players who have great skills and great ability... no doubt KG has it in abundance.... he can be unreal
then there are players who have greatness...who have "it" that thing.... that.... who knows... you know when you see it.... players who show when it matters most that they are up to the task
KG doesn't have that greatness....
I have been saying it for years... watch the series recap and in the most important game... the last few minutes were the most important he has ever played.... and... Posey made more of an impact
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goldnblue83
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| Posted: Sun Jul 27, 2008 12:29 am Post subject: |
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| I know what you mean, when the game is on the line you don't expect KG to come through like you would with a player like Duncan. |
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arkanekidd
No Longer A Virgin!
Joined: 16 Sep 2007
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| Posted: Sun Jul 27, 2008 12:30 am Post subject: |
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| KyleCleric wrote: |
| arkanekidd wrote: |
KG just isn't a leader.... nothing wrong with that... PP is the MVP of that teams success.... they may (as the NBA does) give KG a career achievment series MVP... but he isn't the type of player who can "get it done" |
Kidd, you don't know what you're talking about. KG was the heart and soul of the Celtics team. Everything was built around him. Defense, defense, defense. The defense was built around his help and worked because he's the best defensive player in the game. his leadership kept Pierce in line (a bit of a feat, but not really a tough one considering the instant credibility of Allen and KG). KG showed leadership through sacrifice, insisting for the media to treat Pierce as the teams key star even when everyone knew it was KG. KG created the character of this Celtics team, a team that was one of the greatest teams of all-time and second only in Celtics history to the 1986 squad that truly is the greatest team in NBA history. |
when did i say he's not a great defender?
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KyleCleric
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| Posted: Sun Jul 27, 2008 12:35 am Post subject: |
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| arkanekidd wrote: |
have you watched KG's post season career?
he doesn't close huge games well.
for any example of one instance where the team was in a do or die situation and he rose to the ocassion (and I can honestly say I don't recall even one)
he has 5 where he stood and watched as the game was lost.
There are players who have great skills and great ability... no doubt KG has it in abundance.... he can be unreal
then there are players who have greatness...who have "it" that thing.... that.... who knows... you know when you see it.... players who show when it matters most that they are up to the task
KG doesn't have that greatness....
I have been saying it for years... watch the series recap and in the most important game... the last few minutes were the most important he has ever played.... and... Posey made more of an impact |
Kidd, you don't know what you're talking about when it comes to KG and when it comes to greatness. You don't understand him because he is the most unselfish player in the NBA. His game is about creating the guys around him better more than his own individual play. Greatness isn't about scoring. It isn't even about assists. It's about doing a number of things very well. It's about creating positive team chemistry and team identity. He isn't going to be a guy that will put up a ton of points. He is a guy that will open up easy scoring opportunities for his teammates through his own scoring threat or the pass, close out the lane, dominate the boards, connect with teammates and cover up the flaws of his teammates while highlighting their strengths.
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arkanekidd
No Longer A Virgin!
Joined: 16 Sep 2007
Posts: 4427
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| Posted: Sun Jul 27, 2008 12:40 am Post subject: |
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| KyleCleric wrote: |
| arkanekidd wrote: |
have you watched KG's post season career?
he doesn't close huge games well.
for any example of one instance where the team was in a do or die situation and he rose to the ocassion (and I can honestly say I don't recall even one)
he has 5 where he stood and watched as the game was lost.
There are players who have great skills and great ability... no doubt KG has it in abundance.... he can be unreal
then there are players who have greatness...who have "it" that thing.... that.... who knows... you know when you see it.... players who show when it matters most that they are up to the task
KG doesn't have that greatness....
I have been saying it for years... watch the series recap and in the most important game... the last few minutes were the most important he has ever played.... and... Posey made more of an impact |
Kidd, you don't know what you're talking about when it comes to KG and when it comes to greatness. You don't understand him because he is the most unselfish player in the NBA. His game is about creating the guys around him better more than his own individual play. Greatness isn't about scoring. It isn't even about assists. It's about doing a number of things very well. It's about creating positive team chemistry and team identity. He isn't going to be a guy that will put up a ton of points. He is a guy that will open up easy scoring opportunities for his teammates through his own scoring threat or the pass, close out the lane, dominate the boards, connect with teammates and cover up the flaws of his teammates while highlighting their strengths. |
he's unselfish. why? because he knows he can't take over games when it matters and Duncan can. KG is nothing without a clutch player on the team. Duncan can get it done, but KG can't. Duncan does everything you said also.
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goldnblue83
Joined: 30 Sep 2007
Posts: 2376
Location: Wisconsin
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| Posted: Sun Jul 27, 2008 12:42 am Post subject: |
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| KyleCleric wrote: |
| arkanekidd wrote: |
have you watched KG's post season career?
he doesn't close huge games well.
for any example of one instance where the team was in a do or die situation and he rose to the ocassion (and I can honestly say I don't recall even one)
he has 5 where he stood and watched as the game was lost.
There are players who have great skills and great ability... no doubt KG has it in abundance.... he can be unreal
then there are players who have greatness...who have "it" that thing.... that.... who knows... you know when you see it.... players who show when it matters most that they are up to the task
KG doesn't have that greatness....
I have been saying it for years... watch the series recap and in the most important game... the last few minutes were the most important he has ever played.... and... Posey made more of an impact |
Kidd, you don't know what you're talking about when it comes to KG and when it comes to greatness. You don't understand him because he is the most unselfish player in the NBA. His game is about creating the guys around him better more than his own individual play. Greatness isn't about scoring. It isn't even about assists. It's about doing a number of things very well. It's about creating positive team chemistry and team identity. He isn't going to be a guy that will put up a ton of points. He is a guy that will open up easy scoring opportunities for his teammates through his own scoring threat or the pass, close out the lane, dominate the boards, connect with teammates and cover up the flaws of his teammates while highlighting their strengths. |
That may be his image now, but for the first ten years of his career he sure didn't do that.
If you replaced "KG" with Duncan in the first sentence then it would make perfect sense. |
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KyleCleric
Site Administrator
Joined: 10 Feb 2007
Posts: 8461
Location: Boston
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| Posted: Sun Jul 27, 2008 12:43 am Post subject: |
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| arkanekidd wrote: |
| KyleCleric wrote: |
| arkanekidd wrote: |
have you watched KG's post season career?
he doesn't close huge games well.
for any example of one instance where the team was in a do or die situation and he rose to the ocassion (and I can honestly say I don't recall even one)
he has 5 where he stood and watched as the game was lost.
There are players who have great skills and great ability... no doubt KG has it in abundance.... he can be unreal
then there are players who have greatness...who have "it" that thing.... that.... who knows... you know when you see it.... players who show when it matters most that they are up to the task
KG doesn't have that greatness....
I have been saying it for years... watch the series recap and in the most important game... the last few minutes were the most important he has ever played.... and... Posey made more of an impact |
Kidd, you don't know what you're talking about when it comes to KG and when it comes to greatness. You don't understand him because he is the most unselfish player in the NBA. His game is about creating the guys around him better more than his own individual play. Greatness isn't about scoring. It isn't even about assists. It's about doing a number of things very well. It's about creating positive team chemistry and team identity. He isn't going to be a guy that will put up a ton of points. He is a guy that will open up easy scoring opportunities for his teammates through his own scoring threat or the pass, close out the lane, dominate the boards, connect with teammates and cover up the flaws of his teammates while highlighting their strengths. |
he's unselfish. why? because he knows he can't take over games when it matters and Duncan can. KG is nothing without a clutch player on the team. Duncan can get it done, but KG can't. Duncan does everything you said also. |
KG is a superstar w/o a clutch player on the team, and is a perennial leader of playoff teams.
With great players on his team, willing to fall into line behind him in terms of attitude, sacrifice of the ego for team chemistry and defense, he is the leader of one of the greatest teams in NBA history.
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Last edited by KyleCleric on Sun Jul 27, 2008 12:46 am; edited 1 time in total |
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